Social Media Lab LIVE!
Social Media Lab LIVE!

Episode 路 1 year ago

Should Your Agency Use Paid or Organic to GROW? W/Troy Sandidge

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

We're gonna dive deep into the data this week with Troy Sandidge on the Social Media Lab LIVE to find out!!

Should your agency focus more on organic community-building strategies for growth and sustainability or focus on ads and paid media for growth?

Welcome to social media lab live podcast. I am Scott here's the content scientist at the Social Media Lab, which is powered by a Goa pulse. Our whole goal is to bust the myths, the rumors and the stories of social media marking with science. You can see the interviews I've done over last year at Social Media Lab dot live. Social Media Lab dot live I get the interview a lot of markers you know and some of you don't know, and pick their brains and find out what is working and not working in social media marking. On this episode I'm talking to my dear friend Troy sandage from find troy dotcom and we're trying to answer the question of should your agency use paid or organic to grow? Interesting topic that troy and I came up with and I'm excited to talk about this. You know, brand's hire troy to, you know, increase their social engagement and develop a brand authority and community, and Troy just knows what's going on and has a pulse of social media marking. So pay attention to this episode and be should to run over to social media lab dot live to listen and watch more of my interview used with geniuses and social medium marketing. So we're going to bring on my friend Troy Sandage, and you know troy. He gets his own music, Oh when he hops on on the show, because he's the first one ever to get some music. I've been planning on the street Dick here later. But yeah, Troy, you don't know me, you can use you can find troy literally by looking for at Fine Troy pretty much everywhere on one social media troll. You've worked with a lot of huge companies helping to do all their social media, but I don't like to read IOS very much, if you know me. So, Troy, kind of give us like your, you know, Thirty Second Elevator Pitch of why? Well, we should listen to you when it comes to this topic about agencies. Can Do it while I'm dancing, you can heat up. You had you guys never like my body music and I can't stop one. Stop kissed that, stop, stop growing strati and I know right. I think people should utilize social media and they look at it for just pretty content. Out with that to benefit the business, and so I hope people do that. Happen to those superpowers. Using a girl up halls as a tool within my little house to make that happen, and I think it's necessary. I think it's people needed to see that more and I think two thousand and twenty, if anything, has created the conversation and dialogs thing. I need to make decisions. I need to make some shifts, and it's not just for me as a consumers, for agencies as well, because we may be systematize in a certain way for all these years and two thousand and twenty shift at that. And so what we're talking about or getting versus page is very relevant when the grand scheme of thing is just we want to make sure that we empower those who are agencies or serving their customers to be sustainable. That's really the key word. That's been my word. I'm trying to sew the seed on or two thousand and one. Let's make sure we're sustainable. It's a good let's get back into the period. Let's get our cash flow together, making sure we're giving a sure if one still, you know, was living and do where all dinting from the money perspective, and then we can scale later. So that's what I've been thinking about. That's been top about mind. But yeah, for sure. Now your work that you do right now? I mean do you have an agency with lots of employees? Kind of what's your setup like? What is your day to day what do you do? WHO's your customers? Give names, but like what kind of customers do you work with right now? So I work with entrepreneurs. SMB's a small Manu sized businesses. I work with enterprise businesses as well, startups. Occasional I'll work with nonprofits to just scale. A lot of it's just modifying, making those strategies accordingly. I do sometimes do one on ones and groups as just to help people get off the ground to figure out, Hey, what can I do? What does this make sense in this industry? How would that work? Using digital marketing systems and you know. So you're doing the are you doing the do you do either management side of it or content? Not as much. I'm I'm blessed to have an amazing network of folk we can combine together and say hey, I do this part, yeah, and I'll feed you and people who I've seen tried and true deliver amazing things. Not to do that for sure. So I'm like I'm mailing on the strategy and advisory side. That's just more thing that kind of like almost say a broker, if you will. I mean a lot of people do that. I used to move cars for a living. We didn't own a truck. We we move thousands of cars a month because we just broke it. It and movie between you. But you wouldn't have known that if you know, when you came and looked at our tiny little office in the custom daing care the stuff got done. So that's really cool. So hopef that gives everybody WHO's watching you get a little bit of a idea of what troy's done and and Troy's background. As I mentioned, will...

...post links and stuff to everything here in mid but I do want to ask you there, before we get into this. You got a new podcast called I digress. What's the subject of that and what made you start that podcast? This is kind of new, right. Started it late two thousand and twenty, s about August, September, and you know everyone in two thousand and twenty you're sitting on up Tom alone and you're like I need to do something right. So my something was I want to I'm going to launch a podcast. So I think we made it. Pat would made it to twenty episodes. Which I ever thought I'd be able to do. So I'm celebrating internally and the benefit is is for agencies, is for entrepreneurs or entrepreneurs business is of all types, to just kind of have a simplistic, high energetic way of taking certain things. So I do talk about marking, but do talk about mindset, I do talk about months money, I do talk about sales. I try to break down things in a very simplistic way because sometimes, if I be blunt, a lot of folk talk so high level and they don't know how to bring it down for just people like me. Just averages. I just need a quick thing. And so the fun thing about it is my podcast. I have a lot of high energy. So if you need energy boost, go listen and it's no more than thirty minutes. There are no episodes that I know. People just kind of post and run it. I make a lot of jump cuts, I make a lot of minds and switching brows to make sure it is very compact with information for you. And I can't imagine you not doing something that doesn't have energy. I'm like, everything's going to have energy when you when you do find troy and you're supporting the troy is supporting the brand new or Gore pulse hoodie. To story Pro Troya for new logo or new look. I even made sure I put the new logo on our overlay today so our graphic designers don't yell at me and hopefully they're ending work. Yeah, you got to bring on the right I got to cover this little button up on my lab coast and nobody sees yeah, very cool. So we're going to hop into the subject here and I do see Tim Tim soon saying shout out to to Troy Sanders podcasts. Appreciate you, Tim. Hop It on here. And was he say? Here? Tim Says Hashtag King of energy. All right, so we're going to I'm going to use that, Sam, I'm going to use that somewhere. There's your new Hashtag to any episode. There you go, there you go. Very cool. So the first thing we want to we want to tackle here when we're talking about paid versus or organic to grow, is is what are the benefits of organic marketing and paid mark okay, we kind of got established. First, what are the benefits of these? And then what kind of go into which one? Maybe you shouldn't. Shouldn't do. What are the we are the benefits of doing organic versus paid? So obviously the biggest one. It's free. So you're spending your time, you're spending research that you currently already have. Your building a community. If that's not your goal, that is the goal, and you're creating contents, are using the platforms that are fremium to distribute your message in the hopes that they convert. They go to your website or whatever your cells phone or whatever your cells process is. That is the focal point. Everyone is going to be doing organic. It's not like you can live only on paid. Organic is really the foundation, even if you're considering paid. Also, the benefits of it is that you can really just figure out that brand was you're establishing yourself. So you can kind of make room to just test things out, see how it works in very small space for just those who you trust in your community and they give you positive feedback from it the other side. So I guess a big pro or organic is that you don't have to be though you do have some type of cadus of consistency. It's not very strict on deadlines. You kind of can flow at flow of things happen. You can pause organic when things go around in the world or whatever. You can kind of have that flow and that's kind of the good thing to pro for organic. If we're stricting now to pros for paid, number one is that you're reaching a wider audise that wouldn't know of you fron just orgaining posting alone, and that's anywhere from just whatever social platforms that you choose to be using the other things that you can micro target. So you can talk about glocation. If you're a local base agency, if you're on o Awesome Texas and you only serve people the twenty five mile radius of awesome Texas, well, then you know paid helps from that perspective. Or if you're trying to just build brand awareness or that's increased following account get people to join your facebook community group, like a girl pulls facebook group or thing like that, you may engage in paid to reach a wider out of people to do that. So there are benefits to both. There are case studies and reasons to do both. In some retrospective no matter what your business infrastructure or type is, you will be using a combination or organ it can pay and I know we're going to talk a little bit deeper of one of those case studies. Happen, what makes sense when when you see this, or what the goal is. But just want to set that premise that you have to do both. You can't just only do one and just say I'm going to be good or the other. The answers. You have to do both. Yeah, I think that's key.

I think some people forget about one. You know, I think, especially when we talk about facebook, organic has gotten harder. We know that, and so some people just like a forget, I'll just run ads. But you still got to fund a way to build a community kind of get you get your name out there and get known and like. Well, I know we test a lot of just, you know, run and adds to our organic post of originally out there and they live on social media of an after the fact, and so I think it's something to definitely think about. Would you ever, I mean which one you well, we're going to talk about advantage of disadvantage, but right all the gate, though, which one do you prefer? Maybe I prefer organic, okay, because you know, money is tight. Yo, you're an agency and you're trying to keep everything going I might have to make some budget cuts and make some decisions on where my money is going. I'd rather it to the retention the benefit of my employees and ride the wave of being organic and just cultivating through community, because I think we're in an APLEX where, hey, people are paying for ads and it's not converting in the way that they used to be converting point pre pandemic era. Now that we are in the pandemic era, we actually have a little bit of a strength and ability to lean more on the community aspect to trigger the emotion to get people to buy long term. So if you're in doubt and you're like hey, money is kind of tight for quarter number two, I'd say leaning more organic and see we can get that way, get the testing, bouncing the cadens, and then if you find post, you find imager, you find videos that perform super duper or organic, then those are the blueprint pieces that, if you add money to it in an ad campaign, they should be doing very well for you. M Yeah, I think the problem a lot if you don't do organic, at least way I look at it anyway. If you just slap an ad in front of me and I see you for the first time and seen you, heard from you and ages and I'm like, Oh, okay, there's X Y Z brand there. I can tell it's an ad because you know you're sponsored. No, there's you know, I don't want to do it, but if you've built a relationship and kept it going, like okay, cool, you know what I think. I do want to go look at this product now. I do trust them. It goes back that old no like and trust factor that, you know, I was taught back in one thousand nine hundred and ninety three selling vcrs at best buy, and you get people going to know, like and trust you before they buy from you. In organic to me is where you kind of build that soort thing. That's why we do some like you mentioned our group. We've got multiple groups that were as our king at that where we're playing out with lots of different groups just to keep to our community, you know, engage with us and talk to us and build that no like and trust fact. And that's all organic. There's nothing paid going on in there. We might drive traffic to them, sometimes paid with internally. It's just a hundred percent. One thing I forgot to add off it, like sure you didnt, says of the Cup Seo. Just building that kind of foundation of that that's going to help. And I think you know paid brings them in the door. Yes, organic, keeps them around and keeps them coming back. If I see him add that catches my intention from an essay instagram and now I click on it and it drives me to the profile. If I don't see any recent content and the last thing that you posted was like five months ago or like never, I'm not going to trust. I'm not going to feel compelled to my because if you're not taking the time to educate us and just giving a steed, I steady folk communication and conversation and dialog and engagement, I don't know if I want you to have my money. So it's just something to think about. Right. It kind of goes back to that. I'm saying. I'm like dating myself a lot today. I noticed a nostalgic to this morning for some reason, like cheers. Remember cheers, the show cheers? Oh yeah, all those norm everybody else, they cliff. They all went there. Probably maybe you saw an ad or they saw their sign at one point and what hey, let's go checked out this bar. But then they they got to know them, they knew the people and the people knew them and it was a good relationship and they didn't mind coming in and giving them their money, or at least putting on the tab if you're a norm, you know, every every day, because they saw that they built up that relationship. I think social is still the same. As we go back to old school stuff, it's still definitely the same. So so those do some benefits to organic, you know, and pay to grow. Now now let's let's flip it a little bit. What's the what are the disadvantages of organic and paid market? Other two things we kind of just mentioned a little bit. Disadvantage of paid is that you're in a tight window to get results. So there's a lot of more pressure. There's a lot more things you have to learn and modify accordingly to get a certain result. If you're not used to having things very data oriented to a fault of certain results, you know, that adds an extra pressure. I'm conflict and if you are an AC that maybe you don't have a digital marking specialist or paid marking specials on staff they could be very expensive to bring them on, depending on this size and scale the campaign and trying to run versus organic. There are a lot more affordable options if you don't have...

...anyone in the house to manage the marketing accordance. So definitely not the cuff, just money, whether it's managing or money spent to actually execute that type of marketing tactic. Obviously, paid is double down on both. Organic you still have to pay for someone outsource. But then you think of graphics, you think of time orgaining. Just take a lot of time to do it right, and that something also consider. Even with using amazing platform like the globle to schedule, you still to create the content. So to figure out the CAD is in the scheduling, the flow. Be Mindful of social listening. Get to be more in tune of that. If something's going on in the world that you know, and that's even more clear now that has been in recent years, hey pause it. Hey, we got to you got to be more mindful of that versus and again it'd be the same thing for paid, but you can simply just put pause and it's all done. Where they're getting you got to make sure everything is turned off, make sure all the platforms makes sense, resetting all of it so there are is the time management factor for both and whatever your caden some flow is make sense. So if I'm thinking if you're an agency that doesn't have maybe, maybe you don't have both. You're an agency that does certain things and you don't have a paid marker or designated person that isn't you schedule o the content, what do I do to or what would I suggest to go first? I would still tell you to lean on more organic first, to build that cadence. If you don't have to try to get sales now, if you need to get sales now and you have the budget, because I want to emphasize that, and either you have the skill set or the ability to pay someone to manage it, billing on pay, because that weighs it out. But again we're going back to the disadvantage is it's a beens on the situation to pend on scenario. A paid marking campaign will be more of a disadvantage if you're short armed cash, you don't have anyone to manage it for you, and iffings like that. Or if organic your goal is I need to make money right now, and yeah, communities that you still need to have that flow there. But I need to that'st more my time and resource and the effort, if I have the ability to, and pay marketing, to get those numbers back up so I can be more in flow. Yeah, I think it bowls down in the end. It's the bottom line. It's the money where you want to invest it and spend it. Where you might being to make a quick buck off paid but you know, you still get to manage it. And the worst thing that people don't manage her their paid ads on social. But if you're do an organic you've got, as somebody who's like you said, you got to create the content constantly. Got To get to monitor the content. So there's an expense there as well. So yeah, that's IT'S A it's a tough one that kind of figure out's why you if you have a little bit spin on both, it's better than nothing. I think there was an old it was a saying that Brian Carter Hon't you even know Brian Carter? He's he's one of those original og's and social media marketing. He used always say if you can't spend a dollar a day marketing your business on social media, you shouldn't be in business. It's like you if you got it, if you can't spend at lease a buck, you know you got a problem. You really don't have a business, you have a hobby, and so that's that's something that you kind of going to consider, like it's it worth the time and it can I get the return on it? Actually wrote something down that actual ties to your point. I don't read it because it really leans into Tory. I don't know if I have the ability to do paid. And, like you said, if you can even put a dollar a day to just build that brand and wariness, have that pulse, you never know where that might lead to. So imagine ten percent of your visitors maybe come to your website are email subscribers, right, and then twenty percent of them end up being spending like two hundreds at the front. So you're looking at four hundred right. So based on these numbers, you know that you're averaging about a hundred visitors. I will you know you about four hundred dollars. If you run a pay traffic campaign, you could spend up to about four dollars per click to break even. So a hundred for four dollars spending two dollars per click and you can make six hundred dollars in profit your creat this process and you can now grow your business faster than you would have worked organic traffic exclusively, organic efforts exclusively. But that's just showing how, even with a small budget, you can still generate high volume results down to the I gotta you, gotta give me a warning, because I love them. Oh my God, what's going on? What just happened? I had a call on Jesus for men to scared the Geus that. So that's something to think about. Who is that? Everyone should be able to spend money on some type of ASS and they may not be right now. We're not saying like that's the end all if you can't invest in it right now, but even at the very still, when you're doing your organic again, bookmark content that do really well. Try to understand the psychology, in the science behind why they do well so you can have that same replication when you're doing your act, because your audience organically is telling you from the jump all this makes sense, we love this, we need this. You need to replicate that same emotion with paid ass and that may allow you feel more comfortable to invest your money in paid acts. Yeah, I think that's good. Like this, like a lot of times what happens is you get people who who'll do their organic social stuff, organic marketing stuff, and then paid...

...looks completely different and the two don't jail very well. Like I'm like, well, why did they just use that image or that verbiage? That's not how they talk. But you can tell there's different people are. They've hired out, you know, somebody to do their paid stuff and they haven't consultant enough with the brand voice or the person who's in the trenches every day, the social media manager, to know how to talk to their audience. And that's always a fail in my opinion, when those sort of thing, and we're all guilty of it probably one time or another, because you get some guy who does too paid and he does he knows how to push the widgets and, you know, get people in and get people to buy. But if it doesn't something for some people's going to turn them off real fast. It's like like you mentioned, you know, you heah a little come to Jesus me this morning like this now with the Bell, like I run our church as website and our in our Church of social media and stuff. If I and I did this for a little bit, we took it over night. Nine years ago. I started doing it. We had a website that was like cool and hip and kind of, you know, like progressive, and it's not our people. That's not a look good. You know. Well, like okay, we started thinking about it and I'm like, okay, we shouldn't put that forward because that's not who they are. And we walk in this may walks in the door, let's be honest, but who we are on our website when we get there the way they come in the door. There's no surprises. I think it's the same thing for how you market organically. You're paid. It's no one wants to surprise if it looks cool, slick and then they get into your product or whatever and it's like junk and Jenky. You know, it's a you're get a bad rap. I think for that, for sure, totally, and I think you know, when it comes to pay like you said, people need to make sure that. I think when people do paid marking, they typically I just want most clicks, I want the most needs, and that's great, and there is a difference sometimes in the maytime. Most of us, especially in the Micron, was like quality or quantity. There is some cases or quantity doesn't matter where. If I have a certain number and I can see a certain action always happening, I can quantify that with data to actually make it a quality piece and I wouldn't have it if I didn't have enough touch points of dated it to run. But when you're looking at adding, you hire people, you know, externally, if you don't have someone in house, and they say they can generate these different things, that doesn't mean that it's going to equate two dollars and cents. So I want to debunk that right now, because even in two thousand and twenty one or so people who think, if I just want to add and I get you know, facebook may show you the reach, they may show you the possibility and then that's what you think you're going to get. And then you do the math. Will each one's people paid my things for my product? I'm going to make this amount of money? Yeah, let's do it, and then there's so, so hurt that same way. So we do want to caution and give that CAID in. So also think about using the ads, the paid marketing piece as a self eliminating piece. I know many times people try to tie it into a very wide audience. I just want clicks now. I want to create that and I see, based off the targeting, the Geo tags, the categories that I've selected, who I'm trying to specific audience who is self eliminating themselves from the conversation. And many times you won't know that to scale if you don't invest in paid marketing tactics to do that. When you have that data, that actually gives you the road map to better improve your organic to drive it in that way. So just awesome something to really think about when you're trying to structure paid marketing, even versus or Meganic, because I'm thinking, you know we're doing the verses. Well, I'm telling you that your right hand and your left hand and you just want to figure out the best combination that serves for your intentional goals in their short torrn short term to talk, and a long term. Yeah, I think that plays into what you kind of let into. I like how you did that to the next time with that narrative that they've got it, they've got you. The left hands got to know what the right hands are doing and they got a they kind of playing. But do you have any? Do you have any of their numbers, and maybe we can kind of dive into her data here when it related to these, to the narrative of organic versus paid. Sure, awesome screen. So I put this data and I thought was very interesting. Right, so, only seventeen percent of marketers used paid marketing to just retarget the current audience. They were doing most of it for a wider audience then for social which was all. was very interesting because why not double down on your auditions are familiar with you and bank on your quality of efforts that they themselves would refer and share it out to other folk beyond that? So something to think about. Other things that I saw which was very interesting was that with the shift with two thousand and twenty, people actually were not they were leaning more toward just organic conversations versus just those pop up you got to buy now or else type of situation. They're kind of desensitized to that type of advertise instruct I'm not saying it's not that, I'm not saying it doesn't still work...

...and I'm not saying at least doesn't get people on the page, but it may not convert as well as it used to because people are kind of desensitized to that situation. And so I'm saying, well, we're leading into two from one. Looking at just that framework of mindset with your audience, the frame. Hey, there's a lot of outside sources and variables that are impacting my audience mindset and the perception of value when they come across maybe a paid marketing tactic. I may want to lean more into organic for those instances because I can add context and layers to it. When an add you don't have so much contact. You have so much video, you can only give so much and you may say, Hey, I'm running this advertisement and your audists can say, well, this is very intensitive, I don't need to see this right now. You do. You know what I'm going through and I'm sure that's a lot more folk than we're used to when it comes to being a market but in the same way forum, because I know I hear that a lot of time for marketers. You know where they look at the numbers. I know pay marketing matters, I know it helps, but you know, I'm so concerned that if I run a kid a paid campaign, people are going to be turned off by it. There's, and I'm going to be real with you, there's a chance of that. But I'm saying I also feel with you. Couple that with organic and they know your message and they know who you are, they understand, they know where the intenden is coming from. Or you're just trying to make money to provide for your business, provide for those who work on you. So again, I love a girl post I mean, I'll I'm reaping the gear right, but also if I see a paid organic thing for a girl pulse and I know them, I don't see as a negative connotation. And if no, maybe I maybe. Okay, I'm this is great, cool, cool. I don't associate that because I know the brand. So that's we're or going it comes into. Just build that conversation that kate is around there for the community that, even though you're using paid because you got to get out there, you got to have expoder. Sure the organic is what's going to keep that balance straight. Excuse me, could you glass of water there? Man? That's why I hide my my water and my sonic cups hidden run off camera. Just kind of kind of do that thing. But See, I have the fortune thing I can take you off me, off camera for a minute, and then you know, I said, that's the downside of give you a warning. But me last minute. Yeah, I got a really emotional choked by talking about grubles PAS. I guess you a little pomp, but no, I think I you know, and we mentioned, we brought this in Aperier, because I mean two thousand and twenty one is different than two thousand and twenty. You know, covid chain some things and you know, there were a lot of people when covid hit, going we shouldn't be running ad right now. You know, this is the world has fallen apart and it seems insensitive. And then there was those going no, keep marking, you got a business to run. And so that's that's an eracing debate that I don't know the right answer for everybody. What did you want to add a point? But that, and I lived this in real time, y'all. This is like a real quantitative moment. I'm not just pulling it from somewhere. There was a pier where people were boycotting facebook as for a good stretch of time, and so a lot of people, because they felt you know, whatever the issue was or what they were trying to to proven be a part of that community. They chose to do that. So I add someone you know ask my advice, which were what do I do? These numbers and how we're doing our pain marketing pieces is what's keeping to flow as an agency. We're getting one or two leads a month. We close them out and we were still there. Were still going. If I shut that down for even a month, I can't guarantee forecastleise if we still have the same amount of revenue or, for that hire on revenue. Try What do I do? But I still want to stay in alidarity with certain social issues that are going on, and so, coming out of the moment, I'm going to bring it back a moment me and troy as a black professional, I'm saying do what you're able to do within your means, and it doesn't have to be for me. Could be whatever the statement you're trying to make as a brand, as an Interva, as a company, but you never want to jeopardize your business infrastructure for that. There are other ways that you can still empower and elevate others and still be a part of that community and serve without costing you or your business any type of way. That can put you in a bad situation. To just want to jump out of the box and give that kidds that flow. I'm going to come back in now. So half of this conversation. They're saying that it was ironic though, that though there were some big folk who said they were pausing it right, a lot of folk, there were a good port that did not. And so we're saying, let's hold true to the facebook, let's see how the ads run. And there might have been, I think the numbers was hmm seventeen percent of the big brands did a pause, but most of them did not. They did all the social media content saying they're for social has been they did not commit to that thing. They didn't get a lot of PR back from it. They still made more and they still have consistent amount of money coming from it. So I also think when it comes to paid marketing, sometimes we reflect back on our own maybe biases or our own personal preferences of what we are experience is with that ad or their series of ad campaigns. But you're...

...coming from the standpoint of you're the one who's creating the product or you providing that service, versus those who are actually viewing it. They have a need, they're in desperate need of this situation, of this product, of this what you offer, and so this could be the saving grace that, hey, if I work with this Ahc, because I just saw that the paid marketing piece that you invested in, Oh my goodness, I'm gonna do it now. They may be even more compelled to do it now because of the Times that we're living into. So I do want to play that card because mention we're so focused on. Oh my goodness, I don't want to. I want to make sure to. They're putting the grand scheme of things. Many people are scrolling. They're going to just keep scrolling. Unless you're a big, massive brand name. You know that people recognize and neither a lot more eyes on it than you may be more a pause. But if you're a smaller brand and you always establish the cads and flow, and I want a number of time. So I said kids today, that must be with my words day in the video, because I feel like I'm urt three times for organic and you do, it'll work very well for you. Still. So I say still trust a process and hold onto that. Now, if you're getting people giving you feedback and you're getting an onslaught, now that what you would normally get of DM's or messages or even comments in the facebook or instagram ats, whatever at piece you're doing for social platforms, then that's something consider. But if you're not getting any of that, the data is telling me to continue on and if you're still creating content on grantic to kind of serve that purpose, you're okay. I think that's some good like if you have, if you I think people were worried about getting backlash, but what if they didn't get any? You know that? You don't? Yeah, I guess you have to just try and see. I guess I think there was more of fear of the backlash versus, you know, the benefit of just doing it. I think you have to weigh that for sure for your business, and I like that debb here has you know, Scott and his new toy. Yes, I've had this. The fine thing is I've had this stream deck forever and never figured out how to use it because I don't you know the system I'm using. I couldn't use it. I figured out a program called loop back and I use loop back as a virtual microphone and I'm able to do it. So now I'm having way too much fun during live shows notes from myself. Ye, Luke back like ninety bucks. You buy the software and you can do all kinds of cool stuff with it. I even I did a live show Monday on restream where I actually had the sound from my chrome tab came through loop back as well, so people could hear the sound effects and stuff it. I was saying anyway, fun of that and Kim Gale says thought provoking and interesting thoughts troy him. Appreciate that, Kim. Yeah, if you're hop it over here, we're talking to troy about should your agency use paid or organic to grow? And you know, I think so far we've kind of said yes is the answer. Yes, yeah, you got to use one of them, you know, or but use a combination of both some way or somehow, and I think you we dove into us a little bit. I still want to kind of go back to is, you know, Covid in two thousand and twenty and everything else that, when it's gone on the last year was nuts in two thousand and twenty one is already starting off pretty Zany as it is. I mean, has that has an impacted? You know, social media has an impacted marketing in general. Do you think there's a long term like side effects that we're going to see as marketers, that we got to shift what we do? What are your thoughts? On a hollow the way, I think is dramatically changed it and some ways for the better and some way for the worst, depends on who you are, what you're doing and how you've been doing marking tactics. So I think it's changes that are gaining does have a leg up. I think it's also level the playing field that people who are maybe smaller agencies and SNB's, they have a higher advantage of having these conversations and actually getting big boy results. And sure, what do you mean by that? I'm saying because if we're so desensitized just constant a flow of ads, we want something's going to move us. We want something that's going to touch our emotions, give us in an experience that we want to feel connected to. who better than a small agent? who better than a small business that's already connected with the community and knows how to generate sales, generate revenue from just telling stories, and so you'll see all these big brands. They're spending a lot more money and micro conversations, microinfluencers, people in the community serve as the visuals, to serve as part of their video infrastructure when they run these ads out, so they don't feel like they're so disconnected, so they feel like their home, they're in the community right, but no one does that better than small ages. Want mean it's like businesses. So and as laying the playing FID on that and that you actually can take advantage and people will give you more time than maybe they would have before because they do care about stores. They've had ton really think and, you know, figure out what's going on. I do think, though, with paid marketing, it has shifted a lot. I don't think this is just going to be you...

...know, hey, whenever, you know, we get past this pandemic and we're really officially, officially all the other side of it. I do think it'll be an exignificant as stance of time where people are going to expect more and they're not going to be they're not going to click on the ads they used to get hit with before because just how you're modifying everything we've spent ninety percent of our time on these screens, more than we'd work before. So now we're smart as consumers or as their target demographic arts you're trying to get. We're smarter. Now we're going to we probably clicked on enough of them. We don't. I'm not even going to get it. We've may have even gotten to the pool. We've muted certain keywords, certain things. We're not even seeing your stuff anymore. So that's also something to consider that you know what, I probably need to double down our organic marketing, but also I think the rise of community marketers and marketing tactics is going to skyrocket even the more. Because here's why. When I think back in two thousand and twenty, initially, because I think the shock value of it and everyone had to make changes and we, a lot of people, lost a lot of things and were to figure out what we're going to do as marketers and as ages to serve our clients right. Part of that was, my goodness. Another stuff tact is working. The more people don't have as much money, but if they were in our community, we're still on top of their mind in a way that feels more natural, in a way that we're here to support and educate and verify and amplify certain things. I can't do that from a paid marketing campaign. Initially I can't do that same tacting. They see that, they already know they're trying to take my money. No, I don't need that. But if I had the community, and now a growl post and I'm use a group was example, where they're educating people on how to use their platform. They're breaking in experts to show you things and different value. So the plug in there again we're thinking of organic and time. That community marketing aspect is that I'm giving so much value in different ways and I'm allowing other people maybe like me, and I'm using myself as case study. I'm opportunity to be seen in her it's a good pr piece. People now feel the value. We're using others who actually use our plot form as our voice, to not only are your trust but to maintain your trust. And in time. Does it lead to more sales? Yes, it does, but in a way that feels great, that feels right, that doesn't feel like you know, I need to choose. You're not choosing it for me and I'm carrying other people in the community saying this is great, I don't want to be a part of the community. Where do I sign up? Where do I buy take my money? Because it's not just the exchange of the product, is what comes with the added value of the community. That's where organic is going to shine stronger than paid pay. It's going to get them name or against and keep them there. So I do think in the marketing tactics of an agency room more and more people are either going to outsource or emphasize we need to build some type of community because when things get down and we don't have the money for ads and say we got to make some cuts on advertising or you know, it's insensitive moments right now going on, we can leverage the communities to ride out the way of these small times. It's the same thing with the nonprofit. I use example all the time about that with the one dollar. I won't say again because I feel like I've said in every video, so I'm going to do it anymore. Watch another for your video. I'm sure us that that was Scott as well about it, but it's the same thing. Community was going to lead in the day. So I think I'm going to say forty. When it comes to organic versus pain. Now, the only caveat to when I would say use paid first over organic is if you don't exist and you need to actually bring people in to actually build a community. Organic. It doesn't matter you're posting, you have no one to see your content, so you're just its crickets. Yeah, you know, same. You need to yeah, yeah, I think it's true. Like your brand new or, you know, let's say organically, you didn't post a lot for a while and right you're struggling to get engagement. You're going to have to boost those back to your audience and reengage people. Or if you are, let's say, you know, I'm in Texas, so like everything's Open in Texas at this point, but California there's still a lot of stuff closed. Deb Is you know comment she in California. The say they still can't go to restaurants and things. When those you've maybe have been completely dormant for a year, you open back up and start post on social no one's going to see it, so you're probably got to run some paid ads to kind of re engage those audience. I'm curious what you I don't know if you having dad on this. HAVE HAVE PAID ADS? Are they are they costing more or less now post two thousand and twenty due to Covid or at least do we see? As it's gonna sound really funny, Clip Bite, but I feel like I've looked at the data and I feel like whenever, whatever the prices airline tickets, is a practice of paid marketing, because I feel like in times when it's up,...

Oh now you know the price of advert is, when it's down, it's also down because they trying to get you to do certain things right. I'm not saying that's a secret sauce of the science became me. I'm miss saying from what I've seen, is kind of that same children look at pay and marking, that it is certain time periods, you know the price for an ad where you trying to do, for maybe the result or the impressions that you're trying to reach. Yes, impressions, is at a certain price point and by the next week, you know maybe another state or nothing modified had been opened up and the price is gone up the same amount, same effort. You Ain't modified to make any other changes. It's that same way, but the conditions are rounded on us, your control of change. So I also think that's another reason why, when you're doing paid be mindful of I think now we need to be more mindful of the states. If you're doing if you're going beyond your local area, you're thinking these contingens United States, if not globally, but just, let's say for the sake of argument continent, United States, and you're a certain type of brand or product or you're an age that serves a certain type of client, tell you're almost got to be more aware of which states are going through what, because it actually going to impact your price to buy. But I was going to impact who you're serving and if they're going through a tough time right now. Obviously I may not want to appeal to the audience because it may come off as a sensitive or I just know the numbers doesn't justify me doing a specific state. So maybe in times passed we weren't really looking from a heavy sheel location and more will focus on how many clicks, how many conversions, how you know the watch time, whatever. We actually need to focus more on the geography than we've done in recent time because so much influx have changed, you know, with different states different reasons. So doesn't mean that you know, you got to watch the everything and seeing and all the stuff, but it might just be a simple as if you know your core, let's say ten states that you know at all times you jenered the most revenue from, you may have a google alert coming up that certain keywords that gives you to your team's or your group email or whatever, saying hey, this popped up in the state. Hey, what add is running? We may want to move that state for the time being. So just being more strategic about it, but again system in a systematic way that's not over a bearing, that allows you to still have that flow and still get your good numbers, but knowing how to make a shift accordingly with paid mark and that takes time. Some people understood exactly what I just said. Other people like you know it. That's why I have a consultant for it, but he's still if you just use that clip and you're knowing that. Hey, I want you to be mindful of who you're target to, not just two categories but the Geo state of everything, even, to a certain extent, to s extant demographics, ethics. That might be something to do with you have a certain image or series of images, certain videos, and there's a certain social thing going on in the world that's highlighting a certain demographic and you're heavily predominating that. You don't know where that flowing being someone's mind with they're perceiving it, and now you're getting it. A lot of bad PR situation. I'll be knowing us to you that's going to hit your organic channels in a few, you know, days or weeks or whatever, and so be mindful of these. I think that's the part that we're going to be struggling with more. I not and next thing. We probably should have been that micro anyway, but we've been able to kind of get beyond that because it wasn't as detailed, wasn't as specific, but as social. I think has make this shit to a high level of apex where we really care and we people have more time out to care because they're on the screens, are not as busy anymore. They're looking at ads and copy and text very meticulally than they were previous years ago. So when the same way, we as agencies, we as marketers, have to do the same right with our ass that we've run. Yeah, I think I think what's happened is, and I hate the phrase, but you know, everybody's little more woke, if you will. Like we're like, Oh, we've got to pay attention. We've had this systematic systems going on that causes to be belind the things we weren't necessarily being intentional, but now we better wake up or are social is going to be kind to key in on it really, really quick, even if your intentions were not, you know, negative. You've got to pay attention that. As a marketer, and I think paid or organic, you've got to be. I think two twenties taught us that. You've got to paid much more attention than micro details. Now when it comes to all everything you say, how you say it, when you say it, who says it. All that is got to pull in and I like that idea. And you know we were similar to paid adds that you can quickly turn them off in a certain area. Where organic, you know, let's you targeted. When he started. I don't know if you it's harder go back in and let's take that out rule fast. It's a little more tedious. We're an at. You know, I can go in and turn off, let's say Texas. Let's don't have J as anybody in Texas for right now. I could do that as something was going on and a paid and it's definitely in the most cases the organic you know, you're maybe not thinking with intention of having gl location, unless your you have extended sites or extending agency locations, that you're pulling things from your moresel.

Just having the conversation giving whatever the value, whatever you're trying to do, you know, versus paid, with the Geo being that added emphasis. Say, yeah, I think it's definitely smart to do that. Make sure you target. That's why, you know, I've seen people get as a granular where, you know, every individual ad is a different target. That way they know they can turn that one off easy. Just pause. Let's let that one stop for a little bit. Like if you were a you know, let's say you were in an in Minnesota right now, I would turn my ads off right now for a little bit. You know what George Floyd trial going on. I turn it off because it's going to come across insensitive. You definitely got to consider those things where where your places are at and be smart about it, because it was that stuff catching and bite in the butt and this requires. And again, you may be very skilled at running ads from a scientific perspective and local respective. You just know the day to you know what works, but there's a whole nother side of it. Di Perspective, Pr Perspective, just a community perspective that you probably need to consider, depending on certain things, and maybe the people that you have currently your hc aren't used to that. Bring someone else, one who can give you those conversations. Like, I understand the numbers, but let's look at the visuals images were using for our graphic cars. Is reflect who we are as a brandon and organization. Right, I understand, we need the numbers, but also this could be a dual edge sword, you know, depending on what we're doing, and also long term. Yes, Short term, we just made bank. Great, awesome. Our ads are working officially effectively. Little did we know, and again, I'm not saying this to get put the fear of anything of this is a scenario that people will make. Me Stung. Your shot some things and now they're sharing content tagging your brand in it. That again, the social media team may not be aware of that. The pay media team is doing and I was like, Oh, this is the problem. But Hey, we did to your proof of process. This worked. You know what? The data this is great. The numbers are in. You know, we're seeing the clicks every time. We're getting a buy, a new sale, new conversion, we're regular bell all this great stuff. But we're missing the disconnect. I know what we're missing, the disconnect that could impact our long term success. And so where you looking at organic and paid? It's not just a I get it does matter about the snip situation, what you're currently in, where your cash flow is? Who Do you have on your team? How long does it take to manage all that accordingly, yes, but also the long term of like, okay, where we're going to be at in three months? where? And I think that's where organic gives you that slight edge, because organic and serve you for that really assured long term success. It's the foundation. You cannot get around that. You just can't have one video on instagram and just run adds all the time. You're going to run out of people. And now it's again. I'm all about sustainability, right, you can scale quickly and then you got nothing else. But if I have a combination of paid to introduce my product or my service or my team of what I do, and then I have my orgaining as a community to keep them there, keep them nurtured, keep them going through different things. They may make referrals, they may bring other people to the conversation, they'll stick around. So you got to have both, but you got to really think about how you need to make them both work for your agency, for Your Business Infrastructure. That makes sense. Very good. There's a lot of notes are but I hope everybody takes those notes when they watch this later or will repurpose the credit. Now. This is this is one of the questions. I was on our list, but I'm curious to like, for you, which which you working for? Talking Social Anyway. We're not talking Google paid ads, but right, which social which social side, do you prefer to advertise on? Like, what's your favorite? What do you see the most? You know, success on is it is a twitter, as a facebook, instagram? What are you? What are you? Where do you go? I know you're not going to like my answer because it's a lot of people feel kind of worry about the the platform right now, but I'm on facebook. I mean it's it has the most data. Yeah, you can be as specific as you need to be, and I like to say that too because I get it. I have that same some times I don't. I don't know. But it matters how you're going to use the tool to impact a benefit others. So for me, if I associate the effort that I'm using, even though on man some whatever is about some things that are going on within the facebook infrastructure, I'm using this as a tool to make an impact and help others. When I think it from that perspective, I'm not representing that, I have nothing to do with whatever is going on. I'm doing representing me, using their tool and their day that they have to make a big impact to make sure my employees they employed, to make sure we're making a profit. Quarter two, four, four. When you have that right perspective in your head to make it makes us to make sense. With that being said, I think the combination on Facebook, instagram, because you have all the day to camp go o, very micro. The CPC cost per click is pretty low on average no matter what. So if you're someone who doesn't have a big budget or you're a person very metique about how much you have a financial...

...offers are very like, Hey, I'm very these about whatever money you're using, you can't go wrong there. At the very least you can get a lot of data really efficiently, really quickly on worth my map scope of my audience overall, and I can use that data to apply it to pinchers, to apply after twitter. We just we did a recent thing with Linkedin ads. You know people want to dive in Linkedin adds, but it's also about price again, I think you know, for looking at facebook, Instagram Combo, the CPC is pretty low and it's pretty effective. If I'm doing a legion campaign, I'm going to use facebook, instagram Combo because I can use a beer. Or does that be? I never ever know the Annunciation of it. It's the debate of the century. I know right to tied in. Have a link it to my google sheets and I'm getting all those leads. I can get really high volume of leads for low costs and they're pretty good quality because again, the content is going to seek with them through it to make sure that whole ball is a higher quality lead. But at the very least I'm still these are people not gonna have conversations with that. My cells team or myself can manage accordingly. If I'm an agency WHO needs to get New People in my funnel to keep things going on, that might be something to do. You can do that as efficient or as effectively on twitter. Necessarily now, I would say, if you're trying to mirror audiences that you know are your target group, I would actually lean more towards twitter. And this is versus facebook, and I know that's a weird play, but why? I'm doing enough, because thing, there is a massive shift. I think people are using twitter in a more everwork condition, like about top of two thousand and twenty. But we were conditioned or to be more aware it was going on twenty twenty. Then we filled certain counter for these. You can definitely mirror audiences that align with who you are, your product or servers, your agency, Your Business, your brand, and do a really good, phenomenal job on that. And also it can give you a lot of good followers get it serves the brain away to sign. That could really amplify your organic efforts to so I would think that's a good combo to have as well. If you're looking at Seo, I do think if we get we're thinking of just social only, I think pictures might be something to people still to this day are sleeping on that. They really need to look in some effort and saying, how do I maximized print my pinchers act, because it really could do one of people think about for sure. Yeah, I've actually told I told with Pinterest ads pre covid and I haven't gone back to him since because budget constraints and whatever. But, like I was playing, it was. It was. Interestingly, it actually does well, even for meat is driving traffic to a blog. It did pretty well for me over there. But it's an untapped resource and I think it's people to understand their platform very well. I think. Yeah, twitter is a tough one. You know, twitter is it. You got to be very careful on twitter ads. I've learned that from running lots of ads on twitter and blowing through some money really fast where, you know, I accidentally didn't turn off the twitter audience network thing. Then basically, you know, my ad showed up and every kids APP that they had to watch the ad to get to the next, you know, open the next thing or whatever. They make sure if you're running twitter ads, you turn that off. Stay on facebook to but twitter's not something about tick Tock. I know people who, if you want to get some brand awareness fast, Tick Tock, have you? Have you ran answer? Have you run as her? I've had the pleasure to watch a company do what. I haven't directly done it myself, but I was a part of the strategic side and I was able to see them kind of activate the APP. And again, the thing about tick tock adds is that they don't feel it acts. They really don't have that. Yeah, some do, you person some do, but a lot of them lean on either the creator or emulate what we're used to. Either the business it self there, someone on the team is making a trending thing, or they hire someone else to do it from a microphone or something along most lines. MOBBY's under the consider because if you really want to see where your money can go on and still an untapped at for maybe your particular industry, your type of business, sure your target audience group right might be something to think about just for brand awareness sake. If not, if your audience again, there's more people than just teenagers on to touch now. It's true. We we we're two thousand and twenty one now. There's a lot of folks with Tick Tock who watch it in the all of the night, whatever. So I'm not saying it's me. Okay, I'm saying it's me. So go ahead and try it out to this is like with paid marking. There are opportunities as such. Meal. I've been shown you many times and time again to try and testines out because you don't know what you don't know and you don't know where your next untapped. You know on it will be. Who's like, give me my money. I'm going to give you my money right now. I mean read. It's one as well. It's ready. No, true, read it. Read it as of done well for me to drive traffic and it's cheap super ship. My CPC on Reddit was lower than everybody else's. Yeah, our lower, and twitter lower and facebook lower and instagram. It's an Internet. You got to be careful how you do it and you know, not a lot you can do over there. But Man, I think I read recently, I think, but the next three years, like seventeen eighteen percent of all internet usage will be read it, and it's already at about twelve thirteen percent right now, and maybe even hire with pandemic stuff.

It's probably gone through the roof. Some people, I know, it's all nesome where they're at all day long. So it's it's an untapped place and you, I've read it is like now almost a micro internet experience. Yeah, it is. Yeah, because you can be anonymous and you know, you don't show your face and people to kind of especially certain generations, I don't the kind of tired of that and that whole idea. And so it's a cool place. But you can eat, you can micro target based on the subreddits and tech or whatever it might be. If you got a product that appeals to I just go to Reddit and search. If people are talking about your all your your industry, there's your audience right there and there's not a lot of ads being run on there. Now one point I didn't bring up that just came in my head as cross generation marketing. Yeah, is that you know, as time has gone on, you pick up certain biases, you pick up certain things that this is my audience, is all I have, this is who I talk to you. But the reason why we also arid advising your at least, you know, challenging you to consider other alternative ways for paid marketing from social media perspective is from the fact that, you know, we're having like four to five different generations don't work force right now. That means we're you're oxhracizing folk actually have money. Would pay for what you want for pay for what you do to pay what you have. So you may want to consider that and it doesn't take a lot of money to try it, but I would say at least have ten fre two percent of whatever you're marketing budget and effort is toward testing out alternative options, because you do have those other generations that you need to focus on and seeing is there a play there. But also I need to insteal a neat that that we serve of this we are for these type of people who are a certain age bracket, who might be aren't familiar with our grand namesake or our agencies sake, that we've done it for these they've gone on, but you're not, you don't you're not relevant to me. I don't know who you are. Maybe the same thing for all two agencies who maybe having invest a lot of their time and effort in the digital side, because just saying their name alone gets people shivers and they want to give me my money. It should be there too. So it may be awkward that now you're in a place where you're kind of on the same level of maybe a startup or S and B or a beginning from a digital perspective, that you just can't come in with all your names and who you people are, because we don't know who you are. If you know, we're doing the next generation of people. So pay marketing will also be your tool for that. You could have a lot of great money. But, Oh God, I need to grow in scale. I didn't tapped out my audience. Well, I need to go find a new one. I didn't invest in paid marketing tacts to do that as well. Right. I think it's I like your idea of setting aside some just it. But one thing I was thinking about when it comes to organic marketing, I think we need to make a shift, and that again I'm want to emphasize. You know, not broadcasting, having actual conversations, and people aren't more inclined now to and contribute to those conversations. So it's not just enough to go on a grown polls and just schedule of lot of stuff right content in a way that gives people to actually have a conversation, to engage with your content, you actually get better numbers from a strategic perspective. That shore there are times where you just just scheduled to just say hey, by this product, Hey buy our service, that the numbers verify that you do do that x amount of time, probably thirty percent, whatever your organic efforts are, but you do want to have those conversations and dialog and then be present whenever you're able to follow up with Commons, Follobo or play. That's why I think, with two thousand and twenty one being what it is now, community marketing and combination with organic marketing is so important, so crucial now and it's been in previous years, and we're seeing even a lot of the big brands bringing on a lot more community based teams and effort structure to support active social listening, to support dialog and conversation, to just use your audience as a stronger listening pool to know, okay, this makes sense, this is been time tested and true right, because that is a paid marketing tactic. I wouldn't have that without the dialog and the conversations and the reflections from my own community audience space. I do I do appreciate troy being on the show and talking to I think the knowledge we got today from him is been pretty sinking amazing. If you're an agency or you run social media for for a brand, definitely can listen to that and figure out the how you weigh organic versus paid in your marketing strategy. Is is going to be ultimately socially important.

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